This Week's Skill Focus - Changing your Mind
"How are we going to get past the guard?"
"I think that merchant is charging us too much..."
"Is Gnar acting too friendly towards that pale, cloaked figure?"
Skills and Abilities that can change your mind about things.
(Read that again)
Topic one, When the DM tells you what to think.
There are situations in which a DM is allowed to tell a Player what the Characters thoughts are. As this is a game about the interaction of PC's with the world, and not a DM's Puppet show, these situations are rare, but important.
-Charm Person
The cornered enemy wizard, out of options, casts a spell on the party's fighter.
"Wait, this man is no enemy. Hurt him, and face my sword !"
PC's are generally Humanoids, and therefore prime targets for this first level Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer Spell. While under the effects of a Charm Person spell, a PC must act in accordance with the spell - You treat the caster as a trusted friend and ally. They have no control on your actions, but can attempt to give orders by winning an opposed Charisma check. Orders that are suicidal or obviously harmful are always ignored. Why is this spell so feared then? The enemy of my friend is my enemy. With very few exceptions, continued hostilities of the party will result in the charmed person acting in defiance of their friend, using the best of their (violent abilities), just as you would protect a party member. While a DM usually allows a person to continue playing the character (speaking, rolling for, ect) for the duration of the spell, it is reasonable to take this control away if the Player is not acting in accordance with the spell.
Dominate Person-
"The vampire stares deeply into your soul, and suddenly you are nothing but a spectator as you watch your friends fall under your blade"
Domination is where DM interaction comes in the heaviest. If successful, this spell forms a telepathic link between the Character and the caster, for 1/DAY per level. The caster has near-complete control over the character, coming in the form of basic commands. Commands against the subjects nature get individual saves, albeit with a +2 Bonus. This includes actions such as telling a good character to burn an orphanage down, or telling an evil character to work in a soup kitchen. Again, suicidal actions are not carried out. The behavior modification this spell causes is somewhat easy to notice (DC 15 Sense Motive).
Coming from personal experience, I've found that it is possible for a player to retain control over the character for the duration of the spell, but they must be willing to do what is necessary. A person who gets into the mindset that their character is out to kill the other party members and does so well can prove fun, if not interesting for the DM. On the other hand, a rules-lawyering munchkin may try to convince the DM of their own will "Well, I didn't kill the helpless PC lying next to me, even though I was commanded to attack them all, because I thought it was more important to chase down the person running away". Its for reasons like this that a dominate character is often played by a DM, to avoid even the slightest accusation or questionable action.
Interaction between Characters
Diplomacy
Let's get this out of the way. It only works on NPC's. First line of the description. You cannot use it to convince your fellow player that he should take a smaller share of the loot, or allow you to speak on behalf of everyone to the king. In the case of a negotiation, an NPC might roll it vs. a PC, but this is to determine how well things went, such as in a court case.
Bluff and Sense Motive
Not nearly enough has been said about these two skills in their descriptions. Read the above descriptions for their exact, PHB definitions, but I'd like to give my input/clarifications. Forgive me if the two inter-mix.
Bluff does not equate to "Make someone believe what you say". This constitutes an Epic Use of Bluff, and is outside the realm of possibility of most PCs. As soon as your trying to convince someone to do something they could be put at risk for, in the least, you give them a +5 or +10 bonus on their sense motive. If its a completely outlandish request, a +20 bonus to their roll is awarded.
The Spell Glibness is a grey area. It provides a +30 Bonus to Bluff checks, for a full 10/min per level. This allows an experienced bard or rogue to beat nearly any Sense Motive roll. Well, what does loosing that roll mean?
You can't convince someone that the sky is green, or that they are a llama. You can't get them to give you the keys to their shop, or that they should die on your behalf.
Bluff allows you to lie convincingly, but it does not alter the persons reality.
On the sense motive side-
Sense motive gets bonuses based on how far of a stretch the bluff is (see the table under bluff). Now, for example, if the sense motive bonus is +10 because its asking the person to take a risk, a success of less then 10 on the sense motive roll does not indicate that the person knows you are bluffing, only that they are reluctant to go along with the plan/idea/suggestion. A success of ten (in this case) or more shows that the person knows they were being bluffed to.
-Now, I had to read that a bunch of times to make sure its right, so here's an example.
Jane the Rogue is seen by a Guard Alex walking out of the store with a price-tag still on a +2 Sword of Goblin-Bane. He stops her, and asks if she paid for that. Jane knows that she slipped out of the store with the stolen sword, but tries to convince Alex otherwise.
"Oh, I just forgot to remove the price tag from this. My mistake, it won't happen again"
This bluff is a little hard to believe, and puts Alex the Guard at a little risk (The reputation of the guard as a crime-preventing body"
Jane Rolls a Bluff Check, 13 + 6 (Her Bluff Bonus) = 19
Alex Rolls a Sense Motive Check,
12 (His Die Roll) + 4 (Sense Motive) + 5 (Bonus from the Hard to believe Bluff) = 21
Alex succeeds, but by less then 5 (The bonus from the Bluff). He doesn't think she's lying, but not enough to just let her go. He insists that she come back into the store with him to talk to the shopkeeper. Sucks to be Jane. Now, if he had rolled a 19 (+4, +5) = 28, and beat her by more then 5, Alex would have known she was lying and hand-cuffed her on the spot.
Getting back to inter-party reactions.
Sense motive and Bluff are kept to a minimum within the party in games that I run. Many times that people want to roll sense motive, I deny it to them. If you have no reason to believe that the Merchant's name isn't John, then you can't disbelieve him. If you go into town knowing that there is a merchant operating under an alias for a thief’s guild, then things are different. If a party member wants to try to conceal the fact that they found a single gem on a enemy corpse they looted, and another party member finds it highly suspicious that the prince's son was carrying no wealth, rolls are in order. If its one gem out of 30, then not so much. I also discourage any sort of duplicity within the party, but know that this isn't always possible. My suggestion - don't do things that would require you to lie to the party if possible, it divides both players and characters, and countless campaigns all over have ended with a party split "over irreconcilable differences". Don't take this as a suggestion to all play Lawful Good characters, or ones with spotless records, only that anything that is a part of your character will come out at some point and you have to be prepared to deal with that. Rarely will people trust someone who they know is hiding something, and parties are built on trust. ( Or loot... there are those built on loot...)
--Highly Important--
Such rolls as these are to be made by the DM, out of the sight of players. A player who rolls a 1 on a sense motive check is almost certain to believe the opposite of what you tell them, and often times can be bitter. I don't think anyone is so good at playing rolls that meta-knowledge such as this can be ignored completely. DM's rolling for the players, (applying bonuses when necessary), is important for keeping things uncertain. The same applies to searching for traps/treasure. A Character should be just as confident in there not being traps when the player rolls a 20, as when they roll a 3 - There is no sense of "darn, i searched that room really poorly" in-game.
"I think that merchant is charging us too much..."
"Is Gnar acting too friendly towards that pale, cloaked figure?"
Skills and Abilities that can change your mind about things.
(Read that again)
Topic one, When the DM tells you what to think.
There are situations in which a DM is allowed to tell a Player what the Characters thoughts are. As this is a game about the interaction of PC's with the world, and not a DM's Puppet show, these situations are rare, but important.
-Charm Person
The cornered enemy wizard, out of options, casts a spell on the party's fighter.
"Wait, this man is no enemy. Hurt him, and face my sword !"
PC's are generally Humanoids, and therefore prime targets for this first level Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer Spell. While under the effects of a Charm Person spell, a PC must act in accordance with the spell - You treat the caster as a trusted friend and ally. They have no control on your actions, but can attempt to give orders by winning an opposed Charisma check. Orders that are suicidal or obviously harmful are always ignored. Why is this spell so feared then? The enemy of my friend is my enemy. With very few exceptions, continued hostilities of the party will result in the charmed person acting in defiance of their friend, using the best of their (violent abilities), just as you would protect a party member. While a DM usually allows a person to continue playing the character (speaking, rolling for, ect) for the duration of the spell, it is reasonable to take this control away if the Player is not acting in accordance with the spell.
Dominate Person-
"The vampire stares deeply into your soul, and suddenly you are nothing but a spectator as you watch your friends fall under your blade"
Domination is where DM interaction comes in the heaviest. If successful, this spell forms a telepathic link between the Character and the caster, for 1/DAY per level. The caster has near-complete control over the character, coming in the form of basic commands. Commands against the subjects nature get individual saves, albeit with a +2 Bonus. This includes actions such as telling a good character to burn an orphanage down, or telling an evil character to work in a soup kitchen. Again, suicidal actions are not carried out. The behavior modification this spell causes is somewhat easy to notice (DC 15 Sense Motive).
Coming from personal experience, I've found that it is possible for a player to retain control over the character for the duration of the spell, but they must be willing to do what is necessary. A person who gets into the mindset that their character is out to kill the other party members and does so well can prove fun, if not interesting for the DM. On the other hand, a rules-lawyering munchkin may try to convince the DM of their own will "Well, I didn't kill the helpless PC lying next to me, even though I was commanded to attack them all, because I thought it was more important to chase down the person running away". Its for reasons like this that a dominate character is often played by a DM, to avoid even the slightest accusation or questionable action.
Interaction between Characters
Diplomacy
Let's get this out of the way. It only works on NPC's. First line of the description. You cannot use it to convince your fellow player that he should take a smaller share of the loot, or allow you to speak on behalf of everyone to the king. In the case of a negotiation, an NPC might roll it vs. a PC, but this is to determine how well things went, such as in a court case.
Bluff and Sense Motive
Not nearly enough has been said about these two skills in their descriptions. Read the above descriptions for their exact, PHB definitions, but I'd like to give my input/clarifications. Forgive me if the two inter-mix.
Bluff does not equate to "Make someone believe what you say". This constitutes an Epic Use of Bluff, and is outside the realm of possibility of most PCs. As soon as your trying to convince someone to do something they could be put at risk for, in the least, you give them a +5 or +10 bonus on their sense motive. If its a completely outlandish request, a +20 bonus to their roll is awarded.
The Spell Glibness is a grey area. It provides a +30 Bonus to Bluff checks, for a full 10/min per level. This allows an experienced bard or rogue to beat nearly any Sense Motive roll. Well, what does loosing that roll mean?
You can't convince someone that the sky is green, or that they are a llama. You can't get them to give you the keys to their shop, or that they should die on your behalf.
Bluff allows you to lie convincingly, but it does not alter the persons reality.
On the sense motive side-
Sense motive gets bonuses based on how far of a stretch the bluff is (see the table under bluff). Now, for example, if the sense motive bonus is +10 because its asking the person to take a risk, a success of less then 10 on the sense motive roll does not indicate that the person knows you are bluffing, only that they are reluctant to go along with the plan/idea/suggestion. A success of ten (in this case) or more shows that the person knows they were being bluffed to.
-Now, I had to read that a bunch of times to make sure its right, so here's an example.
Jane the Rogue is seen by a Guard Alex walking out of the store with a price-tag still on a +2 Sword of Goblin-Bane. He stops her, and asks if she paid for that. Jane knows that she slipped out of the store with the stolen sword, but tries to convince Alex otherwise.
"Oh, I just forgot to remove the price tag from this. My mistake, it won't happen again"
This bluff is a little hard to believe, and puts Alex the Guard at a little risk (The reputation of the guard as a crime-preventing body"
Jane Rolls a Bluff Check, 13 + 6 (Her Bluff Bonus) = 19
Alex Rolls a Sense Motive Check,
12 (His Die Roll) + 4 (Sense Motive) + 5 (Bonus from the Hard to believe Bluff) = 21
Alex succeeds, but by less then 5 (The bonus from the Bluff). He doesn't think she's lying, but not enough to just let her go. He insists that she come back into the store with him to talk to the shopkeeper. Sucks to be Jane. Now, if he had rolled a 19 (+4, +5) = 28, and beat her by more then 5, Alex would have known she was lying and hand-cuffed her on the spot.
Getting back to inter-party reactions.
Sense motive and Bluff are kept to a minimum within the party in games that I run. Many times that people want to roll sense motive, I deny it to them. If you have no reason to believe that the Merchant's name isn't John, then you can't disbelieve him. If you go into town knowing that there is a merchant operating under an alias for a thief’s guild, then things are different. If a party member wants to try to conceal the fact that they found a single gem on a enemy corpse they looted, and another party member finds it highly suspicious that the prince's son was carrying no wealth, rolls are in order. If its one gem out of 30, then not so much. I also discourage any sort of duplicity within the party, but know that this isn't always possible. My suggestion - don't do things that would require you to lie to the party if possible, it divides both players and characters, and countless campaigns all over have ended with a party split "over irreconcilable differences". Don't take this as a suggestion to all play Lawful Good characters, or ones with spotless records, only that anything that is a part of your character will come out at some point and you have to be prepared to deal with that. Rarely will people trust someone who they know is hiding something, and parties are built on trust. ( Or loot... there are those built on loot...)
--Highly Important--
Such rolls as these are to be made by the DM, out of the sight of players. A player who rolls a 1 on a sense motive check is almost certain to believe the opposite of what you tell them, and often times can be bitter. I don't think anyone is so good at playing rolls that meta-knowledge such as this can be ignored completely. DM's rolling for the players, (applying bonuses when necessary), is important for keeping things uncertain. The same applies to searching for traps/treasure. A Character should be just as confident in there not being traps when the player rolls a 20, as when they roll a 3 - There is no sense of "darn, i searched that room really poorly" in-game.
posted by Unknown at 1/22/2006 01:46:00 PM
3 Comments:
Pointed, pointed.
Pointy, pointy.
Pinwheel, pinwheel.
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